Interview with a Scout: Daniel Jeremiah  E-mail
Written by Chris Sullivan   
Monday, 01 February 2010 20:12

Ladies and gentlemen, the draft season is officially upon us. Last week was the Senior Bowl, the Combine is mere weeks away, and over the next few months, you'll be hearing more about prospects and drafting philosophies than we'll care to remember come May. To kick off the draft season, Daniel Jeremiah from Move The Sticks was kind enough to donate some of his time for an interview. For those unfamiliar with the site, it's worth a frequent read and his Twitter account @movethesticks is easily in my top 5.

Jeremiah worked in the NFL for six years as a scout, with the bulk of his time spent with the Ravens and the balance with the Browns. Without further ado, let's get this thing off the ground:

Seahawk Addicts: How did you first get involved in scouting?

Daniel Jeremiah: I worked for ESPN Sunday Night Football for 2 years following my graduation from Appalachian State. While in Baltimore for a Ravens game, I bumped into my brother's college roommate. He was an area scout for the Ravens and he introduced me to the Ravens Director of Player Personnel Phil Savage. I told Phil that I was interested in scouting and he recommended that I volunteer at the scouting combine in Indianapolis. I flew to Indy and helped the Ravens scouting department corral players for interviews, stocked their meeting room with food and saved seats at the morning weigh-ins.

I interviewed for a full-time scouting job the following spring and was fortunate enough to get the job. I always advise those that are seeking employment in the NFL to offer their services free of charge for a trial period. This is a great way to demonstrate your commitment and passion to the profession.

SA: Is there a single position that is particularly difficult to assess?

DJ: For a myriad of factors, QB's are very difficult to evaluate at the college level. Another position that is tough to assess is the WR position. With the proliferation of the spread offense, a lot of these college WR's aren't asked to run NFL routes and rarely see press coverage. You can watch 3-4 games on a prospect and not see one single rep of him dropping his weight and working back to the QB. That is where the importance of the individual spring workouts comes into play. You get a chance to see them run every route on the route tree.

SA: What is your favorite position to scout, and why?

DJ: As a former college QB (albeit an average one) I have always enjoyed grading Offensive Lineman. I really believe you determine your team's attitude and style by what you do at those five spots on the OL. In Baltimore, we felt that our team had lost a little bit of our physical nature on offense.

Ravens OG Ben Grubbs

In one draft, we chose Ben Grubbs and Marshall Yanda. We began to build a bully. Since that draft they have added Michael Oher and signed Matt Birk as a FA. They are a physical, punch you in the mouth style of football team not just because of their vaunted defense but because of the makeup of their OL. If you look at most of the struggling teams in the NFL, almost all of them have issues that need to be addressed in their OL.

SA: How much of a collaboration was there from your studying and school visits up to the draft room?

DJ: We had the same philosophy and system in place in both Baltimore and Cleveland. Each scout is assigned an area of the country to cover. We had cross-checker scouts (national scouts or college director) that also made a fall visit to study every draftable prospect. In the last week of November, we would send a third scout to visit the players that we had major interest in. After the college season was over, each scout was assigned a position to evaluate. During meetings, we would spend time going over each player. All of the fall reports would be read, all-star game evaluations and combine results would then be discussed. Then the scout that interviewed the player would discuss what he had gleaned from the conversation.

After all of the information was discussed, our GM would then ask the scouts to compare the player we just went over to other players at his position. Once we found a landing spot for him at his position, we compared him to players across the board that were given a similar grade. Eventually, we entered the draft with our list of 150 players in order. From there, it is pretty much paint by the numbers. We would just check off the names one by one until it was our turn to pick.

SA: The Seahawks have recently moved to a zone blocking system. What do you look for in a zone blocking lineman, and does the importance of the left tackle change much?

DJ: In a zone blocking scheme, you are looking for more agile lineman. You sacrifice a little bit of size for athletic ability. The importance of the Left Tackle doesn't change because it is still your QB's blindside in pass protection. The challenge for scouting O-lineman in this system is finding Guards that are agile enough to work laterally in the run game and stout enough to anchor vs power in pass protection.

SA: How important is the Combine as far as assessing the players? For example, is a 4.4 40-yard dash really that much faster than a 4.5 for, say, a CB?

DJ: Play-speed is always more important than timed speed. If you see a CB get beat vertically several times on tape and he runs a 4.55, it is affirmation that his lack of deep speed is a major concern. If you see a WR consistently get separation out of his break and show a 2nd gear when the ball is in the air on vertical routes, you don't concern yourself if he runs a 4.55. Hope this makes sense. In other words, two players could run the same time and cement the fact that one is fast enough while the other isn't.

SA: What is the single most important characteristic of a college player to successfully transition to the NFL?

DJ: Phil Savage did a study of this question when he was in Baltimore. He came up with 3 things: Speed, Toughness and Instincts. Every report that scouts in Baltimore write, they have to mention and give a grade to each prospect in these 3 areas. If a prospect is fast, tough and football smart, his odds of succeeding at the next level are extremely high. If he has 2 of the 3, he still has a fighting chance. If he has 1 of the 3, the odds are stacked against him. If he is void of all 3 aspects, there is a Zero percent chance he makes it. Of those 3, speed proved to be the most important factor.

Aaron Curry at the 2009 NFL CombineAfter studying the players that flamed out over a 10 year period of time, lack of game speed was the number one issue. Most of the best teams in football are fast. This is true at every level from Pee-wee, High School, College and the NFL.

SA: Last year, the Seahawks drafted Aaron Curry who was hyped as being the most explosive, pro-ready LB in a decade. Instead, Curry had a decent year while a number of LBs taken after him had great rookie efforts. Do you see Curry eventually fulfilling that hype, and what do you think his biggest strengths are?

DJ: I really believe Curry will be an outstanding NFL Sam Linebacker. He is physical as a point of attack run defender and excels in pass coverage. He will need time to develop as a pass rusher. He was much better as a blitzer than as a pure pass rusher coming out of Wake Forest. With coaching, you will see him improve in this area. After visiting the school and studying Aaron, I came away most impressed with his leadership ability. This will show itself as he gets more experience. It is way too early to have any regrets with this selection. He will work his butt off to get better and this draft will provide the Seahawks a chance to get him some help on that side of the ball.

SA: The Seahawks have half a dozen needs (DE, S, RB, QB, OT, CB at a minimum). The first round will be mocked to death by April, but who are some guys who have caught your eye in the last year that might fit those needs?

DJ: In watching several Seattle games this year, the thing that jumped out at me was a lack of explosive playmakers on both sides of the ball. One of those first 3 picks needs to be made on a player that can generate big plays on offense. I love CJ Spiller from Clemson and Dez Bryant from Oklahoma State. The off field issues with Bryant are based on a little bit of immaturity. He isn't a bad kid.

dezbryant

I really like Russell Okung, the OT from Oklahoma State. He would fill a huge need for the Seahawks but I have a feeling he won't be around by the time their first pick comes up. If Sam Bradford's shoulder passes all the tests, I would pull the trigger on him with the Hawks first pick. He is one of the most accurate passers to come out in the last 5 years. He would fit beautifully in this division.

SA: Finally, what (or who) do you think your biggest success as a scout was, and/or biggest disappointment?

DJ: As the West Area Scout for the Ravens, I was able to help sell Haloti Ngata to the group. I won't count that one, it wasn't a difficult sell job! A couple of year's ago, I would've answered that question with Derek Anderson. I knew he was a wild card type player but I was able to sell him to Ozzie in Baltimore. We chose him in the 6th round and he made it to a pro bowl a few years later in Cleveland. Obviously, he has since regressed terribly but to have a QB go to the pro bowl after getting picked in the 6th round was a pretty cool thing for a 2nd year area scout. I feel really good about Ahtyba Rubin. I was only in Cleveland for one draft but we hit on this 6th round pick. He should be a solid starter for a long time.

My biggest disappointment would also come from that one year in Cleveland. We picked Beau Bell in the 4th round. He was good on tape. There were 30 NFL LB coaches at his pro day at UNLV. He had a horrible workout that day. He was bothered by a knee injury that had dogged him since the Sr Bowl. We took him with the hope that we would be getting the player we watched on tape. That player never reappeared and he was out of the league one year later. Lesson learned.

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Hopefully you all enjoyed Daniel's input as much as I did. I want to thank him for giving his time to our humble little blog, and again stress you should check out his site and his Twitter account.

Image sources: 1) Baltimore Sun; 2) Photo by Scott Boehm/Getty Images North America; 3) Photo by G. Newman Lowrance/Getty Images North America



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Comments (50)Add Comment
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written by Irish4life, February 02, 2010
I like how he says that if you have a poor offensive line your team is going to struggle. Hench the Seahawks had a poor line and they struggled. Beef...Its what the Seahawks need for dinner this draft
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written by Highlander, February 02, 2010
I liked your selection of questions.
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written by Rob Staton, February 02, 2010
Excellent piece, thank you Chris.
Great segment
written by GnarlyHawks, February 02, 2010
Thanks for doing this, Chris & especially Daniel!
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written by Riggle, February 02, 2010
This was great reading material. Thank you Chris and Daniel.
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written by JJs, February 02, 2010
Great piece!..May be the most informative piece ever on this site..

Thank you.
Very Impressive
written by kidder95, February 02, 2010
A reporter you may be!
Great interview Chris
written by seahawk, February 02, 2010
Great interview and very informative. Keep it up.
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written by omar little, February 02, 2010
Awesome, I've always been interested in pro scouting and this really appeals to me.

I'm glad he pointed out how some players have game speed. I pointed this out the other day with Forsett. He only runs a 4.6 (I think) but he appears much faster on TV. I also pointed out that this is what made Jerry Rice and Steve Largent stars, they only ran like 4.5 speed but always seemed to be open 25 plus yards down the field, and once the ball was in their hands they were always a threat to take it to the house.

I also like accleration in players, especially WRs. Look at TO, I don't think any player in the past 10 years had a better 0 to 60 time than TO, and that is what helped make him a success. He would stop on a route, then next thing you know he had 2 or 3 yards on the corner deep down the field.

Dez Bryant seems to have this speed also (timed in 4.5 range), so to me he would be a viable option at 14. His suspension does not bother me, as it was more of a technicality than actual behavior issues.
Great Write-up!
written by Farmer Paul, February 02, 2010
WOW! Chris has sports reporter written all over him! Great job! Before we go after any QB, WR, RB, etc. we need to make sure our O-Line is intact. O-Line is the biggest need! By the time we get to the draft I'm hoping our O-Line is beefed up. If not, then we need to pick up Mike Iupati to be our starting LG. If we resign Rob Sims then he can play at RG.
OK, I have a question for everyone...
written by CanadaHawk, February 02, 2010
There are those out there like Danny ONeil who say we need big playmakers... RB, a big WR, a pass rushing DE, etc...

My question is this: If we pick big playmakers with picks 6 and 14 and disregard the OL, wouldn't we be in the same boat this time next year? Hass has no time to throw and we keep getting stuffed (and if we keep this up, we won't even have Matt). Besides, don't we already have playmakers like TJ and Nate? So isn't this draft supposed to be about getting better upfront first?
Canada Hawk
written by Billy Showbiz, February 02, 2010
I like your question and you may be right. The only thing to keep in mind is that our new OL coach Alex Gibbs has been really successful with low round linemen. Reading this interview it would seem that LT would be a concern in the later rounds but if Gibbs is able to make lemonade out of lemons on our line then we could afford to grab some playmakers. I personally think that we would be smart to get a playmaker like Spiller and a LT with these first two picks. I think that Carroll will have our defense playing inspired like we have seen from them in the past. Lets hope it all comes together.
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written by Recordblender, February 02, 2010
Great work Chris! I almost always enjoy reading your posts. Very informative.
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written by tam, February 02, 2010
kudos Chris, that was a good read. so bryant and spiller eh? dont mind them so much at 14, still leaning for a LT at 6, but thats just me.
Number One
written by Major Hit, February 02, 2010
Gotta draft Cody and the twins.
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written by cts, February 02, 2010
Billy Showbiz and Canada Hawk-

Yes, OL is a major priority but you can't reach for one. In my opinion, Okung and maybe Campbell are the only options at #6. I don't like Williams or Davis as a fit for our ZBS. At #14, I only think Campbell, Bulaga and maybe Brown/Iupati depending on the combine. Even they Brown/Iupati are a bit of a reach.

So yes, OL is a major issue, but you can't reach. That is when these play makers like Berry, Haden, Spiller come into play. I don't agree with Bryant at all as WR is one of our last needs on the team and WR has probably the highest bust potential of all positions.

As for Gibbs, the guy already had talent on his lines going into the jobs. He basically refined their skills and only had to fill gaps. He also had MUCH healthier players. It's not the same here. Our OL is tattered, broken and he is having to completely rebuild it. We are in rebuild mode and expect to see at least one OL taken on day 1 of the draft this year and the next at a minimum. He's a great coach, don't get me wrong, but our OL isn't Cinderella and he isn't the fairy godmother.

I expect to see an OL close to our 2005 OL or close to through him but it won't be next year (or even 2), but in the future. And we have to add some top end talent to get Gibbs to a situation where he can fill gaps with raw players to coach up and refine their skills. Guys like Capers fit this mold. Big, athletic, strong enough, but raw in technique. It's guys like Oher who have everything physically going for them, but raw on the technique that Gibbs would drool over.
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written by cts, February 02, 2010
I'm glad you asked the question of what scouts look for in an NFL calibre player. Speed was an issue we have been discussing on here and was the reason I had my doubts about Gerhart, Scott, Tate and Blount and was the reason I said they were glorified FB's. Of that group I feel that really only Blount plays faster than he times and was why I said I did like him, but was still hesitant.

I've been watching highlights of these guys and I stand by my statement that Blount is the only one playing faster than he times. However, I will say that Scott is the fastest to the hole. If he had that second gear and wasn't always being chased down I'd be all for him.

I was watching Best, Spiller and Dwyer too. These are the 3 I'd consider taking on day one. Matthews seems slow to me. Definately slower than Dwyer on the field. Dwyer looks really good at #40. Spiller is on another level as I've said and everytime I think about taking someone else at #14 I watch his highlights and I get sucked right back in. Best is good and fast, but Spiller has that special something.

Spiller has such good speed, agility, vision and awareness. He constantly is making people miss and that is just something Best just doesn't bring to the table. It's easy to see why everyone is comparing him to Chris Johnson. If he's there at #14 we'd be stupid to pass on him.

Comparing videos between Best and Spiller I often saw Best's big runs coming from huge holes and straight line speed. Spiller makes plays out of nothing and has such good vision to bust a big play. Just watch the video below and tell me he's not worth that #14. Don't know why I keep being open to someone else at #14 when I can't stop being in complete awe of this guy.

or this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wf0kC-w9lU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wf0kC-w9lU
#6
written by BoiseHawk, February 02, 2010
If we think Spiller is going to be as good or close to Chris Johnson then why would we not pick him with our #6 pick. He has a good chance to be gone by the 14th pick. We could then take a very good DE and maybe Brown from USC to man the LT spot.
Spiller is a three skill player
written by BoiseHawk, February 02, 2010
Spiller is a great running, A great receiver and can return punt and kicks. This would be an awesome pickup for Seattle. It would make the playaction work again
Congrats
written by JohnnyB, February 02, 2010
Hey Chris, great job on the interview. Good questions. Great idea. Football fans need to understand what goes on behind the scenes. Too many fans act as if they know more than the coach, GM, etc, just by watching games. If they understood more about the huge submerged iceberg below what they see on TV, they would sing a different tune. If you can please do more of this with NFL execs, ex execs, ex coaches, players, etc, it would be fantastic.
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written by S.TTBM, February 03, 2010
Excellent questions Chris!

Years ago when I was writing for an online music magazine, I interviewed an up-and-coming local band whose music I loved. Long story short, it was MUCH more difficult to come up with good questions than to write criticism! It was excruciatingly difficult, in fact. So my hat's off to you for your excellent interview.

If I ever win the lottery and start a paper/magazine, youre hired!

On the old chicken/egg argument: O-line or playmakers first:

I think the Hawks line wont be fixed completely in one year. Nor will all our playmakers be found in one draft/free agency period. The challenge of our new coaching staff is to plan over the next 2-5 years which impending free agents they intend to target and when, and which college players they like--at least in the first three rounds a year.

I dont see us fixing our line immediately in the draft. I think it will be a mix of FA and the draft over three years that will get us where we want to be. Meanwhile, it might be prudent to take a playmaker or two high in each draft.

It still comes down to BPA. If they think CJ SPiller, for instance, is a once-in-a long time type of player at a need position, they may choose to snag him rather than a LT at 6--especially if the LT who grades out there (Okung) doesnt fit what they are looking for as well as Spiller. They might also decide that next years RB/WR Class is better, and next years LG class poorer, and pass on Byrant to take a LG this year (iupati anyone).

As long as they seem to be finding the BPA at each pick, I wont get too upset with whomever they pick.

And while our line is in shambles, so are parts of our RB and WR corps, our secondary, and our D-line. Cant fix them all in one season. So rather than pick 3 O-lineman in one draft, hoping to solidify it in one fell swoop, I think the prudent thing is to try to build a complete team over say, a three year period. This would entail NOT concentrating on one unit, but carefully picking the BPA at need positions.

But if we choose a playmaker or two or three on offense or defense, we can continue to tinker with the lines to find the right combo to compelement our playmakers over the next couple seasons.

What I would advocate is taking one lineman high--if theres a guy available at the slot who is the BPA, while also bringing in at least one if not two competent NFL starters in FA. We build in one offseason a competent line that is a mix of aging vets and young up and comers. Over the next three years we draft the replacements for the vets and build a long-term stout young line.

Meanwhile, we take playmakers where they grade out, and sprinkle them in along with the lineman. We have an aged WR corps full of overpaid underperforming vets that needs overhauled SOON. Drafting one WR in the top three rounds over the next two-three years should fix that problem.

The running game needs a short-yardage bruiser (who knows if Schmitt can be that guy or not) and a solid counterpart to Forsett. Perhaps Rankin is that guy, but a McKNight/Blount type back wouldnt go amiss in the right draft spot.

We also have D-line issues, and the secondary is missing at least one if not two pieces. Trufant is aging, and we all are hoping he isnt facing a Shawn Springs-like injury related droppoff.

So there are obviously more holes that draft picks even over the next two years. However, we still should be able to field a contender next year, or the year after at the latest, if Caroll and company are all theyre cracked up to be.

As long as the top three picks this year give us two starters and a good backup/role player, Im gonna be happy.

Even if we dont get Tate/Bryant/McKnight/Thomas/Brown or any of the other guys I kinda covet.
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written by cts, February 03, 2010
Okay, I'll bite to a point. I agree that an overhauling isn't necessarily the best thing, but I'm also a believer that games are won in the trenches. You can have all the talent in the world and unless you got the big boys up front that talent won't do squat.

Everything I say is relative. Relative to who's available when we pick. I'm not saying reaching for Brown at #14 if Bulaga and Campbell are off the board. Like I have said over and over, I want a Berry, Spiller 1, 2 punch. Then an OT at #40, then a mid round if someone like Fox, Veldheer or Wang is available and/or an OG. We will be getting a few comp picks this year (anyone have any idea of how many?) and using 2-3 picks on OL doesn't neglect the other positions. We need health on our OL. But yes, this is all with respect to what we do in FA as well.
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written by S.TTBM, February 03, 2010
I would like to see Seattle take a chance on some star players from small-school Division I or Division II or even III athletes in the sixth/seventh rounds IF we dont think we can get them to come as UDFA.

One of the big issues I had with Ruskell was he would rather draft a mediocre potential player from a big school than pick a star from a smaller school. I dont think thats the right way, but neither am I advocating the Holmgren approach: reaching for small school guys just because--that didnt work too well either. YOu have to be prudent.

But I hope Caroll at least takes a good look at some of the guys that were men among boys, at least in later rounds.
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written by omar little, February 03, 2010
Yes I agree with you STTBM on the smaller school prospects. While I generally supported Ruskell, I never liked his tendancy to draft from larger schools over the small ones. If Ruskell deviated from this strategy we may have players such as Ray Rice on this team. The only small school players I think he took was Aaron Curry. The next smallest school was Josh Wilson from Maryland.

Drafting from big name schools has got us players like Kelly Jennings and Baraka Atkins. We have to take some chances and maybe we'll get our own Ray Rice, Rasheen Mathis, or whoever.
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written by cts, February 03, 2010
Neither Curry or Wilson came from small schools, but yes I agree with taking stabs at them in the later rounds. I was pretty pissed when we passed on Rashad Jennings last year to pick up Morrah and Greene. I was okay with Reed, but really, we had that bad of a back field and they passed on Jennings?!

I'm just not an advocate of taking smaller school guys higher in the draft. Most small school players are in the mold of Michael Roos. This is why I have concerns with Iupati at #14. The level of competition just isn't there.
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written by omar little, February 03, 2010
I don't know about you but when I think of big productive college programs, Wake Forrest is not one that comes to mind...
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written by cts, February 03, 2010
Didn't say they were productive. I just said that they weren't a small school. They are both in the ACC and that's a pretty big conference. Not to mention Wake Forest has been pretty decent the last 4 or so minus this year.

Either way you look at it, Wake Forest isn't a small school. They are just not traditionally a top end football school. Not to mention they've been a Bowl team 3 out of the last 4 years and one of them being a BCS game.
Seahawks Future!
written by MrMali, February 03, 2010
It is impossible to say what to do until we know about what if any agreement will happen regarding FA status. Ideally, we select the best players available in the draft after using FA to plug holes. I do not want to select Spiller as I feel Forsett is the best RB the team has had since a guy named Curt Warner. Safety's and OG's have a tendency to slide in drafts. My dream scenario is E. Berry, trade down from #14 to in the low 20s (pick up a 3rd rounder) and select an OT like Bulaga or whoever Gibbs wants and then Iapoti in the 2nd.
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written by cts, February 03, 2010
Alexander is the best RB this organization has ever had... hands down.

As for Forsett, he's not the miracle man. I love the guy, but he is too slow and way too small. We haven't seen if he can even carry the load as a true starter. He's not a franchise back, but would make due.

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written by Highlander, February 03, 2010
It's just a matter of opinion, but I'm partial to Curt Warner as Hawk RB, but he was never league MVP.

As for Forsett's speed...he plays faster than he times. I think he could carry the load of the team of he had a strong compliment to back him up. What I mean is 20 to 25 carries...probably never going to be the 35 plus carry type guy.
Alexander?
written by MrMali, February 04, 2010
There is a reason Alexander is not very respected on the national level. He was a 2 down back who could not block or catch the ball. He ran behind one of the best OLs of his time with 3 Pro-Bowlers. He ran hard near the goal line but other times would fall backwards for a 2 yard loss or run out of bounds rather than take on a 185 pound CB.... Forsett runs twice as hard as Alexander did but that is not saying much, and he has great quickness which is what matters. CTS may I ask why you think Alexander was better than Warner or did you even see Warner play?
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written by cts, February 04, 2010
MrMali-

Because you are speaking of the Alexander after he got injured and lost it mentally. Before 2006, Alexander ran hard too. They were both starters for the same amount of time with the Hawks and Alexander put up 3000 more yards and 40 more TD's than Warner and that is with Alexander's 3 years of injuries/soft play. Give SA those 3 years healthy and he may still be running the ball for us.

So yeah, I stand by my statement that Alexander is better than Warner. You are just associating SA with the negative way he ended. Did you watch them play? You may have a bias towards Warner but don't throw out accusations without knowing what you are talking about. And if he was as unimpressive as you say he was, then why was he voted to the all decade team?
CTS
written by MrMali, February 04, 2010
Sir, I agree with everything you have stated except Alexander and I am not sure what accusations you think I threw out? You are referring to statistics that are based upon chances and the quality of the OL. I played RB and I am talking about Alexander's style of running throughout his whole career. He was often a dancer who only ran hard in the red zone. Most people never realized Alexander was not in for most 3rd downs unless it was a 3rd and 1 situation. The reason for that is because even he weighed around 225 he was a very poor pass blocker and could barely catch a cold.

I do not care about most stats btw. I care about what I see in a RB. Warner suffered a torn ACL his 2nd season in the 1st game and was never the same but still a very good RB and played 6 seasons vs SA's 8 seasons. SA played only 2 not 3 seasons after his one "great" Super Bowl year. He never had the special ability to regularly make the 1st tackler miss which is what the great RBs do IMHO and to gain an extra 2 yards at the end of the run like Forsett does. Also, just for info there are very few RBs who can carry the ball 25-30 times a game anymore. I like Forsett to carry the ball 15-18 per game and J. Jones who ran good this last seaosn to form a viable 1-2 punch. Forsett is also a very good blocker unlike SA. I just prefer we use the selection on a different position rather than RB is all. I respect your opinion and yes as a 43 year old former RB I saw them both play. Total yards for a RB is like talking about RBIs in baseball meaning they are based upon other variables like opportunity. Yards per carry has a meaning but total yards not so much especially when comparing an average team to a team who is a contender year in and year out with 3 Pro-Bowl lineman. Again, I meant no disrespect as I like and appreciate most all the comments I have seen from you. It is refreshing to discuss football with someone who has a clue.
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written by cts, February 04, 2010
Actually Warner played 8 seasons 83'-90'. Alexander played 9 seasons, but the last in Washington were you could count his carries on your fingers, which is why I stated 8 seasons.

I agree with the poor pass blocking and receiving. These are areas that Forsett brings something to the table that SA didn't, but Forsett just isn't fast enough to be a featured back. Plain and simple. I do agree he plays faster than he is timed, but he doesn't separate in the open field. That lack of 2nd gear bothers me.

Either this year or the next we have to draft a RB for the future that can be a franchise back. Forsett isn't going to scare anyone in my opinion. He's slow and like 5'8" or 5'9". That to me is not really someone you have to gameplan around. That's why I'm a big advocate of Spiller. He doesn't really have any weaknesses. He's fast to begin with, but looks faster on film, he's a good blocker, receiver, returner, hard runner, hits the hole hard, but is also patient, he's agile, has great vision/awareness, is a team player/leader and is a threat every time he touches the ball. Despite what many have been saying, he took ~20 carries/game (minus 4 games where he took less than 10 due to inferior teams). He could easily be a 25-30 carries/game back. He's a rare talent and we are in a unique position this year to get him. I think QB is in the same position, but I'm not sold on this years early round talents.

Not to mention Spiller did it through playing with injuries. He did all of this through a minor knee sprain and turf toe. As a RB you can attest to how much turf toe can affect your running yet he was still amazing and it didn't really affect his cutting that much. Imagine if he was healthy.

That's besides the point. I agree Warner is great. Don't get me wrong, he isn't in the HOF for nothing and I was too young to really remember him the first half of his career so I will give you that. I don't really remember him before his injury.
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written by cts, February 04, 2010
And for all of the other guys on here wanting a Blount/Tate/Gerhart/Scott type of player, I'll conceide a bit. I still think that none of them are a feature back or that J Force is our future primary back, BUT if we were to pass on someone like Spiller or Dwyer who could be an every down back of the future I wouldn't be opposed to a couple guys to compliment Forsett until we find that back of the future.

I still don't like Tate or Gerhart. I think Blount is a hard runner and plays faster than he times and has the most potential, although not huge, to be a franchise back and could supplement Forsett well. However, I think Scott would be the best option of these four. After going back and watching him, he has a very quick first step and hits the hole fast and hard. That is exactly what you should look for in a bruiser complement back and if we were to pass on a franchise type back I'd be on that bandwagon in the 4th with either Scott or Blount, in that order.
...
written by cts, February 04, 2010
I still think that Dwyer is better than all of them as he is the same size, runs hard and well and has the speed to create separation. But is it a better value? I don't know...
RB speed vs quickness?
written by MrMali, February 04, 2010
Curt Warner played basically 6 seasons. His 2nd year he was injured the 1st game (10 carries) and missed the rest of the year. His last year in the NFL he played in 6 games (49 carries) as a reserve for the Rams so I do not count that. I agree SA basically played 7 seasons since his last with the Redskins (11 carries) was like Warner's injured year and his 1st he backed-up Ricky Watters

Most players know that quickness which is hard to measure, is much more important than top end speed. Barry Sanders was not fast, but quick as a cat and I consider him one of the top 3 to ever play the game. Largent was not fast but had quick feet and he is considered one of the best to play the game. Forsett has that rare ability to make the 1st tackler miss which is something SA did not do. How often does a RB use their 40 speed in a season? Maybe 2-5 times? A 4.3 40 time for a RB looks pretty but does not do much. However, quickness is used every time a RB touches the ball. I love to watch Forsett run as he just gets it. I love how he fights, twists, ducks and dives to get 2 or 3 extra yards at the end of a run when SA would have fallen backwards or danced and lost 2 yards. 25-30 carries a game in the NFL = a very short career. Teams are shying away from the workhorse RB for several reasons.

There are RBs who put up big numbers with great lines like Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith and Shaun Alexander. None of those were a 4.3 threat to go all the way but were very consistent in what they did. I am not a huge fan of any of those 3 but I respect them. My favorites include B. Sanders, G. Sayers, E. Campbell, J.Brown and Sweetness. A few like Billy Sims and Bo Jackson had short careers. I could talk RBs forever -lol. I am excited to see how things will play out for the team- GO HAWKS!
RB vs OL?
written by MrMali, February 04, 2010
I wonder how the salary cap issue will play out. I would like to grab at least one OL in the GIBBS mold before the draft starts. Any word on getting Marshall for Branch + maybe 4th rounder? I love Iupati so I would be happy to end up with him if we trade down or if we get real lucky in the 2nd. All this talk about Gibbs turning a below average line into a high quality line sounds good but some players are needed. E. Berry at #6 sure would help things out on Defense and plug that hold for a decade huh?
...
written by Highlander, February 04, 2010
Not the best quality video, but here's a bit of Curt Warner on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...e=related
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written by S.TTBM, February 04, 2010
Discounting Forsett for a percieved lack of speed is ridiculous. A running back doesnt need Chris Johnson speed to be a star. Before Johnson, no one had Chris Johnson speed!

ALexander was a great back for six seasons, and he was not 4.5 fast either. He could still get away from defenders. And so can Forsett.

FOrsett runs like Walter Payton--but his small stature means he takes more of a beating and has to expend more energy than a guy Alexander's size. Which means you dont want to see Forsett carrying the ball 20-25 times a game, plus catching passes and pass blocking. 10-15 carries a week, with the occasional 20-carry game would be perfect. He showed he can handle that, especially if we fix the O-line.

WHile a guy like Spiller would be great, I dont think he's a must have--because Forsett can be a star too. He's a potential 1500 combined rushing and recieving type player. And Rankin may turn out to be a great counter-punch to Forsett--who's to know? I sure liked what I saw from him when he was on the Raiders in preseason.

If we draft an RB this year or next, I think it should be an all-purpose or a bigger back. Someone with size and decent if not world-class speed.

As for the O-line now getting all the credit for Alexander's stats, thats ridiculous. Its just been too damn long since we all watched Shaun rip it up week after week. People forget. While the NFL and plenty of other people never embraced Alexander due to his wierd personality and his penchant for avoiding the hit whenver possible (which was taught to him by Stump Mitchell by the way), ALexander was a HOF type player for six years. And that line was only truly great for one season--the other five seasons it was merely ok to pretty good.

Its all the rage to discount all those yards and TD's, but I remember watching him make something out of nothing, and I remember too that even after his injury he would run damn hard whenever Holmgren asked him to. Remember the GB game in the snow where his foot was still injured? 40 carries (a Hawk record even Warner never topped) despite his obvious lack of agility. Then a few weeks later, against the best rush defense in the NFL, SD, he rushed for two TD's (one long run so pretty I almost cried) and 138 yards. All of those yards came hard. Its the best game I have ever seen by a running back--and I go back to Payton's last couple seasons.

Shaun lost his agility and a little speed in the offseason after his injury, and he was no longer quick enough to run the same way and make it work. He could have turned himself into a straight-ahead bruiser like Eddie George at the end of his career, but obviously he wimped out (and chose to walk at 55) and decided not to bother.

You know, when he was tearing up defenses weekly, not many fans cared if he ran out of bounds rather than get an extra yard on a 30-yard run. Why? Because we knew he was gonna get in the end zone in another play or two anyway.

Shaun Alexander
written by MrMali, February 04, 2010
Not counting his 1st season that he backed up Ricky Watters, S.A had Walter Jones/ Steve Hutchinson/Robbie Tobeck from 2001-2005 for all 5 of his good years. He had only 5 good seasons not 6 and yes S.A came into the league with a time of 4.45 - 4.5 in the 40 just for info. Just looking at S.A's highlights shows you what huge holes he had and he rarely was hit behind the line of scrimmage. He was for his size a very good cutback runner and had exceptional speed for his size.
...
written by cts, February 04, 2010
I hear ya on the quickness thing, but Forsett isn't running away from anyone. It's the homerun threat and busting a long run at any time kind of threat, like a Chris Johnson type back, that forces you to game plan, take extra measures and allows your pass game to open up more. But I agree with the quickness. Sanders IS a perfect example of that and that is the type of back that can have the same effect, but lets not compare apples to oranges. I love Forsett, but Sanders he is not.

A versitile, bruising back like Dwyer would be good for this team. I've been an advocate of him, but if the value is right and he's the BPA at #14 why pass on Spiller. In my opinion, he is leaps and bounds better than any other RB in this draft and Forsett.

I love Berry, or Haden for that matter, at #6. We need a playmaker on D and I really only see those 2 being that player at #6 unless McCoy were to somehow fall and even then I'm not too sure I take him over Berry. I don't like any of the DE's there and no way Suh falls.

I agree about the whole OL thing. People need to stop believing Gibbs is a miracle worker. He had good healthy lines in place when he started and just made them better. Yeah he didn't get high OL draft picks, but only because he just needed to patch holes and could afford to pick "his player" later in the draft. We are in rebuild mode, not refine mode and that will take high picks the next couple years. It's just ignorance to think we can spend our midrounders to fix our OL and turn it into the Dever type of OL. Not an option.

One thing we can all agree on is that Forsett is light and day compared to Jones. I don't think Carroll will make the same mistakes Mora did in regards to those two. Slave, I totally agree with you about Alexander.
...
written by MrMali, February 04, 2010
I agree with all you said about the #6 pick and I like Haden as well. Berry is my top choice since Safety's seem to fall and from watching him he has can't miss all over him. Regarding J.Jones I was not a huge fan of his but I admit he ran hard in 2009 and I have no problem with him being the back-up. I hope the NFL can reach an agreement so more players will be FAs this season. More important than that issue however is Big Walt. I hope he retires and Branch is gone one way or another to free up a ton of money. I also hope Butler gets a chance to play a ton in the pre-season as he has the type of speed to open things up
...
written by cts, February 04, 2010
Well, I hope JJ is gone. He's a 4 million and change cap hit this year and he hasn't earned that. This is one of those "cut the dead weight" scenarios. I'm in the same boat with Branch as well. I like Butler and am ready to give him a starting job to see what he can do on a full time basis. He won't be worse than Branch, that's for sure.

I disagree with Walt. If he passes through our Docs I'd give him a better shot. Him at 80% is above average in the NFL and better than anything else we have on our team. We need all the help we can get on the OL. I say play him until someone takes his job. I don't think that's how it will happen, he's more than likely done, but I have my fingers crossed.
Big Walt
written by MrMali, February 05, 2010
If JJ maybe restructures I am ok with that but you are right with the cap hit. Walt is due around 10M and that is too much to waste another season on hoping dont you think? It is time to move on IMHO. Best case scenario he comes back and plays average for what 1 or 2 years as one of the highest paid lineman in the NFL. Worst case scenario and much more likely he misses the whole season again as one of the highest paid lineman in the NFL? His injuries in 2009 hurt us but 2010 they killed us. I think anyone who is willing to risk another 10M that Walt will come back at age 36 after missing basically the last 2 seasons is not thinking clearly. Maybe just maybe if he reworks his contract. Ruskell gambled his job on Walt's health in 2010 and look how that worked. I can read the future and see if we pay walt 10M and he misses the 2011 season every fan will be calling for the GMs head in 2011 as they should. That is a High Risk - Low Reward gamble that has disater written all over it. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me and fool me 3x = shoot me!

CTS I agree with almost everything you have said previously. S.A we can agree to disagree but, risking a season on Walts health is not a wise gamble to take. If you do that and Walt again misses the year then you have 2010 all over again. Are you saying you would be ok to have Locklear as our LT and Willis as our RT again in 2011 and hopeneither get injured?
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written by cts, February 05, 2010
I wasn't saying that at all. I wasn't okay with Lock being our LT last year. I've been wanting a new LT prospect for the last 2 years and this year is no exception. What I stated is that until someone can come in and replace Walt I have my fingers crossed that he can come back and contribute. Again, I believe Walt at 80% is above average in the NFL. And with our OL health issues we need all the help we can get and if this is an uncapped year the only person that stands to lose anything is Allen. That's to give a future Hall of Famer one last shot to come back. He was performing at the top of his game 2 years ago and if he can come back, as so many have before, I think it's worth a shot. Maybe it's just my bias towards the best LT of all time and/or my skepticism in the OL getting it done without him or a top notch LT.
CTS?
written by MrMali, February 06, 2010
I hear ya but committing the approx 9M to Jones for 2010 eliminates any chance of us finding a replacement for him right? We cannot afford on the salary cap to spend 9M for Jones, 6M for Locklear PLUS another 5M for a replacement IF/WHEN Jones cannot play right? Wanting Jones to return in 2010 is warm and fuzzy but it is just asking for trouble I feel. Yes, 2010 may be an uncapped year but it will most likely be resolved by 2011. Jones was the BEST but it is time to move on!
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written by cts, February 06, 2010
It's the uncapped year that makes me feel its worth the chance. Allen can afford to front load money to give our OL a better shot. All it would be is another year to see where Walt's health is. If it isn't worth it, part ways and we have a rookie with a year under his belt to step in and take the reins. Or if Walt doesn't pan out and only gives us a few games then we have his back up.

I'm just saying that with the injuries our OL has had the last couple years more is better and especially with LT. We've had nothing but RT's trying to play one of the hardest positions in football. Not acceptable.

Who's to say that a restructuring of his contract isn't an option either. We could use the senior leadership too. I'd be on your side if this wasn't an uncapped year.
...
written by アメリカ合衆国, March 05, 2010
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